42 replies to this topic

[Jon Saltinstall]

Here's an oddity.

 

I have just noticed that the Ford Capri 3000 GT in which Roger Clark / Tony Mason contested the 1973 Avon Tour of Britain in July 1973 carried the same number plate (XWC 712L) as the car that was badged as an RS2600 and was piloted to victory by Kurt Rieder in the first heat of the season-ending Ford Capri Comparison race at the Osterreichring in October 1973. The latter race was the first occasion when the Capris wore the ducktail spoiler that improved their handling as a precursor to the 1974 ETCC campaign.

 

The only visual difference i can see between the cars is the wheels and possibly the radiator grille. The few contemporary reports that exist for the Austrian race definitely describe the car as a "new RS 2600 model" rather than a "3000 GT" which was the banner under which it contested the ToB. So - is this a case of Ford changing the mechanicals of what is otherwise a bog-standard car, or is there more to it?

 

 

[Vitesse2]

Well, firstly, that plate would have been issued between August 1st 1972 and July 31st 1973.

 

According to the Mk1 Capri Register, that plate was also on one of three 'race prepared GXLs', allegedly pictured here at a Spa 24 Hours.

 

https://www.caprimk1...ssic_racing.stm

 

However, the photo doesn't match either the Spa pits or the 1973 race. Not least because it was actually taken at Le Mans! And in 1972. So those cars:

 

1 Cannot possibly be carrying the stated numbers, as they wouldn't have been issued yet.

2 Are LHD, out of Cologne, and were presumably the ones normally used in the ETCC.

 

54 is the Birrell/Bourgoignie car, 53 Mass/Stuck and the other one will be 52 - Glemser/Soler-Roig. All entered as 2600RS models.

 

Slightly better version of the same picture on Luis Santos's Le Mans site: http://lemans-histor...r=&data=&album=

 

There are action shots of all three cars too. None of them with a number plate.

 

The Clark car is very obviously RHD, the Rieder one is anybody's guess.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say Ford probably had an unexpired carnet for the plate on a rally and/or race car and just bunged the plate on the Rieder car in order to move it across Europe without having to do more paperwork! Would customs have gone to all the trouble of checking the VIN against the paperwork? Or maybe Ford had a few spare VIN plates?

[Myhinpaa]

 

The Clark car is very obviously RHD, the Rieder one is anybody's guess.

 

 

Judging by the position of the wiper spindles/arms it's a RHD shell, so if anything it's a halfhearted LHD conversion.

 

It's also fitted with RS3100 wheels and seems to have lost its bonnet and pins used on the Tour of Britain car.

The grille is from a RS2600, but that model was never offered as a RHD from Ford as the RS3100 was meant to cover that market.

[Jon Saltinstall]

The Rieder car from the Osterreichring Saisonfinale is definitely RHD as for the Lauda book I found a clear profile picture of Niki in his car which confirms this.

 

(Copyright Motor Sport Images)

 

There were 4 of them, as shown in the full photo which I cropped the earlier Rieder image from:

 

(Copyright motorsportarchiv.at)

 

Maybe those additional number plates will help.

 

Other than that, Vitesse2's comment that "...Ford probably had an unexpired carnet for the plate on a rally and/or race car and just bunged the plate on the Rieder car in order to move it across Europe without having to do more paperwork! Would customs have gone to all the trouble of checking the VIN against the paperwork? Or maybe Ford had a few spare VIN plates?" might well be the true answer.

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 17 January 2020 - 14:06.

[Vitesse2]

Well, the plate on the Lauda car - XWC713L - is another one that's listed on that dubious photo on the Capri Register site.

 

There was no works Ford representation in the BTCC in 1972-3. In fact there were seldom more than two Capris present at any round. So I think it would probably be a question of looking at photos of more rally cars to see if the number(s) turn up again. Might be the only time they were actually seen in a circuit race ...

[Bikr7549]

What sponsors are the 'Elan' and the 3 white circle advertisements on the side of the car in Jon's first picture?

[Charlieman]

Where were the cars prepared? Who were the entrants? Is there a common thing about them turning up at the tracks?

[Jon Saltinstall]

What sponsors are the 'Elan' and the 3 white circle advertisements on the side of the car in Jon's first picture?

 

 

I believe Elan was an Austrian fuel company. They sponsored lots of airfield races in the late 1960s.

 

 

The white circle logos are for the Raffeisenkasse bank, which was Lauda's personal sponsor in the early 1970s.

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 17 January 2020 - 16:35.

[Jon Saltinstall]

Where were the cars prepared? Who were the entrants? Is there a common thing about them turning up at the tracks?

 

If I may be allowed to quote from my own book, this is the story of the Osterreichring event:

 

"As Lauda's BMW contract had ended and he had signed with Ford to make some Touring car appearances in 1974, he was able to take part in a contest set up by the company at the season-ending national Group 1 meeting at the Österreichring. The occasion was a premier of the updated Capri RS 2600 at which four such cars were put in the hands of Austria’s best drivers — Lauda, Dieter Quester, Helmut Koinigg and Kurt Rieder. The cars ran on standard tyres with soft shock absorbers and without limited-slip differentials and at last featured the rear spoilers that they had obviously needed all season to curb their wayward handling. The RS 2600s were allocated by ballot and used for two 10-lap races, with the results decided on aggregate. Rieder and Quester scrapped for the lead in the first race, Rieder coming out on top, while Lauda had a fairly lonely run to third place. When the Capris were swapped around for the second heat, Lauda took over Quester’s car. Koinigg led at first but soon retired with engine failure, leaving Quester and Lauda to put on a dramatic duel that had the spectators on their feet. Towards the end, Quester was able to break away but collided with Heinz Derflinger’s Alfa Romeo and spun. Lauda forged past to take the win ahead of an angry Quester, the combined results from the two heats giving Niki victory on aggregate."

[BRG]

If I had to guess, I'd say Ford probably had an unexpired carnet for the plate on a rally and/or race car and just bunged the plate on the Rieder car in order to move it across Europe without having to do more paperwork! Would customs have gone to all the trouble of checking the VIN against the paperwork? Or maybe Ford had a few spare VIN plates?

Boreham at that time had a somewhat cavalier approach to road registrations.  I can recall that the same number plate appeared on rallies firstly on a RHD forest spec Escort one weekend, then a LHD tarmac spec (different wheel arches, suspension etc) a few weeks later and then back on a RHD Escort a week or so after that.  If only I had kept all those many years-worth of Motoring News.....

 

On another occasion, I am certain that I saw one of the Tour of Britain RS2000s of Gerry Marshall and Roger Clark on a trailer somewhere in the SW London area (memory fails me a little!) and yet the event was still going on elsewhere and both cars were still in it.......

[Jon Saltinstall]

Unable to resist the temptation to say that surely it was Vauxhall who had a Cavalier approach to road registrations........

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 17 January 2020 - 19:16.

[D-Type]

It was ever thus.  When the Austin Healey Sprite was announced magazines had publicity pictures on consecutive pages of LHD and RHD Sprites with the same registration.

[Tim Murray]

[Vitesse2]

Well. yes, Tim. But that number was transferred from Bristol demonstrator to Bristol demonstrator as each new model appeared. Whichever car was the current MPH100 could usually be found in Bristol's London showroom on Kensington High Street.

 

A friend's father had his initials plus 250 on his personal plate. It looked very good on his Mercedes Benz 250SL. Less so when he sold that car and bought a 280SL!

[bradbury west]

I think I recall Bristol Cars running MPH100 and 100MPH, at the same time, with both cars in a publicity shot.
Roger Lund

[mikeC]

'Twas ever thus!

 

In the early 1920s Austin ran at least three (and possibly four) different Sevens on the OL166 registration number - at the same time!. The Works Triumph Spitfires were disassembled between every rally, and the reassembly didn't usually match the previous incarnation, but the identity plates were transferred to match the registration numbers.

 

Basically, UK registration plates are a poor means of identifying cars, especially competition cars.

[Tim Murray]

When the Bolster brothers ran their specials on the road they had to be careful, for as John wrote:

‘We could never drive in close proximity, however, as, no doubt owing to some oversight on the part of the licensing authorities, both cars had the same registration number.’

[elansprint72]

I believe Elan was an Austrian fuel company. They sponsored lots of airfield races in the late 1960s.

 

 

The white circle logos are for the Raffeisenkasse bank, which was Lauda's personal sponsor in the early 1970s.

There are still plenty of ELAN fuel stations in France (and elsewhere, possibly ?).

[BRG]

I believe one of the 'works' DTV Chevette HSRs used in the British Rally Championship ran for most of the season with slightly different numbers front and back, before anyone noticed!

[Doug Nye]

From faltering memory, in the 1950s Team Lotus ran entries wearing matching reg nos simultaneously at Oulton Park and Brands Hatch...

 

DCN

[Myhinpaa]

I believe one of the 'works' DTV Chevette HSRs used in the British Rally Championship ran for most of the season with slightly different numbers front and back, before anyone noticed!

 

Pentti Airikkala's first HS ran as HSS 775N in it's first 4 events, after victory on the Welsh it was discovered it should have been HSS 975N.

975 was built from a crashed car supplied by SMT, and the Scottish authorities had issued the wrong number.

 

775 was a Morris Marina which owner must have been blissfully unaware (?) about the fame his reg.no was acquiring in England.

 

Boreham however once put different reg. number front and rear on Mikkola's RS1600 for the '72 Olympia Rally.

The car was RWC 456K but on the front it had a stick-on number which read RWC 456J, which wasn't a works Escort at all.

 

That time however Boreham made an honest mistake....

[Tom Glowacki]

Car dealers in Wisconsin routinely have current registration plates mounted in rubber frames with a flap at the top.  If you want a test drive, they just pop the trunk lid, lay the license plate frame flap over the edge of the body, slam the trunk (sorry, "boot" to many of you) lid and send you on your way.  No big deal.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 18 January 2020 - 23:33.

[Lee Nicolle]

So when the cars were driven on the roads they were actually not registered. So if involved in an accident **** happens.

Shonky chassis numbers on open wheel racecars is one thing, but putting the wrong rego plates on a tintop being driven on the roads is actually very stupid

[Lee Nicolle]

Car dealers in Wisconsin routinely have current registration plates mounted in rubber frames with a flap at the top.  If you want a test drive, they just pop the trunk lid, lay the license plate frame flap over the edge of the body, slam the trunk (sorry, "boot" to many of you) lid and send you on your way.  No big deal.

That is a trade plate, umpteen different names but is temporary registration for the motortrade for demonstration and repair and testing.

I have had one for near 40 years

[Fatgadget]

So when the cars were driven on the roads they were actually not registered. So if involved in an accident **** happens.

Shonky chassis numbers on open wheel racecars is one thing, but putting the wrong rego plates on a tintop being driven on the roads is actually very stupid

Not really an issue if its an honest admin error is it?

[Vitesse2]

That is a trade plate, umpteen different names but is temporary registration for the motortrade for demonstration and repair and testing.

I have had one for near 40 years

The Americans call them dealer plates, but these are presumably what Tom means:

 

https://wisconsindot...tes/dealer.aspx

 

However, the US system means that no car on a dealer's forecourt has a current licence plate, as the plate stays with the seller and can be transferred to their next vehicle, providing it's still in date.

[Myhinpaa]

Mike Hawthorn's D-type at the tragic '55 Le Mans ran on trade plates (774RW) and I guess it was even driven on the road to and from Coventry. (?)

In later years ('84) a '55 D-type was registered on the same number, but as a proper reg. this time. Not sure about the full story or if it's even the same car..?

Edited by Myhinpaa, 19 January 2020 - 16:04.

[BRG]

Now that is a whole mare's nest!  The provenance of the car registered in 1984 as 774RW is cloudy to say the least.  It is sometimes called an evocation of the 1955 Le Mans car and it seems to have Lynx connections but some claim it have parts of the 1955 car XKD505.  Interestingly, it has been seen at Goodwood carrying that registration but in red figures on a white background, which is the standard colour scheme for trade plates since forever.  

 

How a trade plate number could have been issued as a regular registration, as it apparently was in Kinross-shire in 1984, I do not understand, but I am not knowledgeable about the in-&-outs of trade plates!

[Vitesse2]

Now that is a whole mare's nest!  The provenance of the car registered in 1984 as 774RW is cloudy to say the least.  It is sometimes called an evocation of the 1955 Le Mans car and it seems to have Lynx connections but some claim it have parts of the 1955 car XKD505.  Interestingly, it has been seen at Goodwood carrying that registration but in red figures on a white background, which is the standard colour scheme for trade plates since forever.  

 

How a trade plate number could have been issued as a regular registration, as it apparently was in Kinross-shire in 1984, I do not understand, but I am not knowledgeable about the in-&-outs of trade plates!

Pre-1970 there were actually two types of trade plate - white on red and red on white - which had different restrictions on their use. Red on white ones were generally used for delivering untaxed vehicles from the factory and between dealerships, whereas white on red could be used for things like customer test drives.

 

https://en.wikipedia...om#Trade_plates

[Lee Nicolle]

Not really an issue if its an honest admin error is it?

Oh yes it is. Wrong plate on the car is a major issue. No excuses for 'admin error' at all. Different in different countries but most driving unregistered is a fine and loss of points, driving uninsured is a far more serious offence. And a disaster IF the vehicle is an accident. Even back in the 70s.

What has been a common 'dodge' here in Oz is trailers,, 2 or 3 trailers with one numberplate. But the cops can tell the difference between a tandem car trailer and a 6x4. And for decades must have a VIN no.

A few have been caught, and since it was deliberate end up in court. 

Having built a few car trailers for myself and assembled a kit 6x4 for a friend I have learnt the rules. 

And quite a few are having difficulty registering obviously old trailers that have never been registered. With no previous details.

 

And as a licenced car dealer there is far too many shonky cars out there. Rebirthed, stolen and given a new ID from a wreck. Been there and done that. As in buying a used engine and then TWO cars have the same engine number, mine was legit with paperwork. The other was a dead loss to the dealer who bought it. The other car had taken the details and identity plate from the wreck at a crash auction. After this that wrecker would simply bounce back cars with no ID as he was treated as a crook by the police, at least initially.

As for special interest cars,, Falcon GTs, Monaros XU1s, 6 pack Chargers etc as well as imported muscle there seems to be more now than in the 70s! Yet report them as advertised on Ebay the 'authorities' do little. Both as cars and simply ID plates.

A GTS350 Monaro I had  in the 70s these days is a different car to what I had, with the same ID. Fraudulent and someone will get burnt. Either by the law or as selling a car that is NOT what is is supposed to be. 

There has been quite a few of these.

A friend has been driving around  for years in his 70Mustang with a 68 Shelby ID plate in the console. He had some explaining to do when searched [illegally] by the police. The plate was from a totalled car and reported as so. Luckily for him.

[Lee Nicolle]

Pre-1970 there were actually two types of trade plate - white on red and red on white - which had different restrictions on their use. Red on white ones were generally used for delivering untaxed vehicles from the factory and between dealerships, whereas white on red could be used for things like customer test drives.

 

https://en.wikipedia...om#Trade_plates

We, here in South Oz used to have a business hours plate with several restrictions. It was changed by a Govt with money grabbing so now those plates have gone and we have to pay considerably more for a general trade plate. I had one of each, then had to spend several hundred more to have two.

[RogerFrench]

Rolls-Royce had, or maybe still have, a range of numbers like 1800TU, 1900TU, 2000TU that they used for demonstrators.
On a more lowly note, I have photographs of one of my father's Austin Seven specials with 3 different number plates. One of those is worn today by Simplicity, not the car in the photographs!
It was some dodge in the days of petrol rationing. Cars had rations, so identities of cars were important, and the registration number was that identity. I suppose nobody checked chassis plates!

[RCH]

So when the cars were driven on the roads they were actually not registered. So if involved in an accident **** happens.

Shonky chassis numbers on open wheel racecars is one thing, but putting the wrong rego plates on a tintop being driven on the roads is actually very stupid

It was common practice for works rally teams to swap plates around, I don't believe it was "actually" illegal at the time. Many rally cars of the '70's/early '80's wouldn't have borne too much scrutiny. My first rally Hillman Imp was built up from 2 cars with 2 seperate log books. It seemed to make sense to use the identity of the shell which was used because it had a longer MOT but the chassis number in the log book did not comply with that on the car, the previous owner of that shell, when it was a car, had used the identity of another car used in his build probably for the same reason. 

 

At that time, so long as the car was roadworthy, was taxed and MOTed and the driver insured then it wouldn't have been a problem in an accident. I doubt that anyone would have looked too closely at chassis numbers. Legislation was introduced later to try to ensure that "cut and shut" accident "repairs" were kept off the road. 

[Allan Lupton]

On a more lowly note, I have photographs of one of my father's Austin Seven specials with 3 different number plates. One of those is worn today by Simplicity, not the car in the photographs!
It was some dodge in the days of petrol rationing. Cars had rations, so identities of cars were important, and the registration number was that identity. I suppose nobody checked chassis plates!

More common than having different numbers on the same Austin Seven was having the same number on several Austin Sevens - it was the number that went with the one Tax Disc (and petrol ration, during rationing times) that the owner could afford. Use of Guinness labels as Tax Discs reduced the need for multiple-car numberplates, of course, but had its own hazards. . .

[D-Type]

On the subject of "questionable" number plates, I like the story of when Sir Freddie Laker was doing a publicity flight in a Super VC10 around East and Central Africa to publicise the new British United Airways service.  To demonstrate that the aircraft also carried freight he had borrowed a Silver Cloud demonstrator from Rolls Royce.  While the plane was flying out from Britain Freddie, the inveterate showman, handed a pair of "RR 1" plates to an aide and instructed him to fit them.  

[Charlieman]

My first rally Hillman Imp was built up from 2 cars with 2 seperate log books. It seemed to make sense to use the identity of the shell which was used because it had a longer MOT but the chassis number in the log book did not comply with that on the car, the previous owner of that shell, when it was a car, had used the identity of another car used in his build probably for the same reason. 

My recollection is that the official procedure would have been to arrange an "engineer's inspection" and apply for a Q plate (vehicle of indeterminate origin). That may have affected insurance cover and resale value.

[swintex]

My father had MPH 500 in the early 70s

 

On a Fiat 500 estate.

 

It got bent between two rather larger cars at a roundabout when the one behind was paying more attention to what was already on the roundabout, rather than a possible queue.

 

Richard

[D-Type]

Is the VIN number stamped on the shell or is it on a plate fixed to it?  Ditto for engine number?

Edited by D-Type, 21 January 2020 - 13:39.

[RCH]

My recollection is that the official procedure would have been to arrange an "engineer's inspection" and apply for a Q plate (vehicle of indeterminate origin). That may have affected insurance cover and resale value.

I believe that procedure would have been rather later than the time I was talking about.

[roger ellis]

For the 1957 Le Mans 24 hour race Team Lotus built no fewer than five brand new series 2 Elevens, two customer cars and three Works cars. So new were the cars that according to Ian Smiths report published in Sports Car & Lotus Owner “ the three Team Lotus cars were still being built in the main square at Dover on the Monday afternoon

as the transporter awaited passage on the midnight boat.” One of customer cars (chassis no. 321) owned by John Green and was to be driven by Robbie Walshaw and John Dalton, they finished a creditable 13th overall and 2nd in the 1100cc class.

 

Photographs taken during the race show the car displaying race number 42 and a UK registration 

number UDV 609. This reg. number also happened to belong (and still does to the present day!) to the ex Peter Collins Aston Martin DB3S2 raced successfully in 1957/8 by... John Dalton.

 

It is my belief that due to time pressures the decision was taken to “borrow” the UDV 609 reg. number in order to conform with race regulations -ie that competing cars are road registered. After the race this car was raced successfully by Henry Taylor whilst still in John Greens ownership and registered LCH 800.

[moffspeed]

Back in '68 there was a newspaper advert for the Ford Escort featuring a very standard looking car on a muddy track yumping high into the air with the strap line "Here comes mother" or something equally patronising.

 

As a 12 year old I was voraciously devouring any motoring magazine that came my way and recognised that the photo was infact of XTW 368F (one of the early press demonstrator Twin Cams that went on to have a rally/rallyx career) being jumped on a testing ground with Roger Clark, Rod Chapman or whoever behind the wheel. Ford had done the 60's equivalent of a photoshop, converted it back into a standard car and lost the "XTW" plate.

 

Indignant and full of self-importance I wrote a letter of complaint to the FoMoCo. The reply was not too positive and in so many words was along the lines of  "bugger off and get back to your Meccano set you precocious little s*d".

 

Funnily enough it didn't deter me from owning a series of RS Escorts a decade or so later.

[BRG]

Here's XTW 368F.  

 

I remember that advert.  The picture was taken, I believe, at Bagshot on the Army test- track, although frustratingly, I cannot locate the actual shot on-line.  Not even in this collection of Escort adverts!

[moffspeed]

Of the trio of "works" Capris entered in the 1973 ToB  XWC 712L and XWC 714L were allegedly "retired" by the FoMoCo after the Tour.  713L (the Prince Michael of Kent car) went on to have an active career in the BSCC (now BTCC) with Tom Walkinshaw in particular.  It also competed in the Spa 24 hours and the RAC TT.  It was auctioned at Silverstone a couple of years ago.

 

Incidentally a fine Mk1 Lotus Cortina in the background of the original photo - by the early 70's you couldn't give them away...