darson Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I need a little assistance here please ladies and gents and I think this is the right place to get it. I have recently picked up the Tamiya Swordfish Mk.I and plan to build it in the markings of one of the aircraft that took part in the sinking of the Bismark in 1941 which also features as the box art. My question (or confusion) comes from the camouflage colors that FAA Swordfish of this era. The kit instructions call for Dark Green & Grey Violet over Sky Grey, whereas I have read the upper wings should be Dark Sea Grey & Light Sea Grey with the lower wing Slate Grey & Light Slate Grey & lower fuselage Sky Grey??? Can someone please tell me which combo or combos of colors are accepted as being correct. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 AFAIK, the upper wings should be Extra Dark Sea Grey/ Dark Slate Grey whereas the lower wings should be Dark Sea Grey/ Slate Grey, the paler shades on the lower wings to compensate for the shadow from the upper wings. That is IF this convention still applied at this stage of the war, I believe it did drop out of use at some stage, not sure when & sorry, I've no ideas about this particualr scheme. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCRanger Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I thing both wings would have been Extra Dark Sea Grey/ Dark Slate Grey but I'm open to correction. IIRC Tamiya used a fictitious serial but I have no idea what the correct one is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The confusioin may come from the fact that Dark Slate Grey is actually what we would call a 'green' shade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I believe that shadow shading was still used well into Swordfish production, and would expect to see it here. The question I do have is whether the undersides were Sky Grey or Sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darson Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 I believe that shadow shading was still used well into Swordfish production, and would expect to see it here. The question I do have is whether the undersides were Sky Grey or Sky. Yeah that's one of my questions as well Graham, from what I have read the aircraft that Tamiya are representing (serial aside) is a Blackburn produced aircraft and that Blackburn continued the use of Sky Grey when they began production of the Swordfish Mk.I . Although I am happy to be corrected in this. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Jones Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Ian Huntley wrote in Scale Aircraft modelling some years ago about Swordfish camouflage, I believe he had been approached by the FAA concerning the restoration of one of the Historic flights aircraft. Using his connections to Fairey he was able to access archieves from both Fairey and Blackburn. He discovered that Blackburn were applying shadow shading up until 1943/44, so that even aircraft with the white undersides and high demarcation were shadow shaded, this was the scheme them applied to LS 326. So I should think that from his evidence, most Swordfish of Blackburn production would have EDSG/DSlate G and DSG/SlateG upper surfaces. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Read this discussion thread, it may be of help. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...=Shadow+Shading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darson Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) Many thanks to everyone for all your replies they are extremely helpful especially that link Steve. I did search the site befroe posting this but I was searching for Swordfish and it didn't pull up that thread. Cheers Edited March 1, 2011 by darson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) Yeah that's one of my questions as well Graham, from what I have read the aircraft that Tamiya are representing (serial aside) is a Blackburn produced aircraft and that Blackburn continued the use of Sky Grey when they began production of the Swordfish Mk.I . Although I am happy to be corrected in this.Cheers Darson Lloyd's book on FAA camo and markings has a photo and profile of V4298 '4C' of 820 Sqn, HMS Ark Royal, which has Sky undersides and almost identical fuselage demarkation between upper and lower camo as depicted on the Tamiya box art. There was also a profile of Esmonde's aircraft in one of the 'Wings' magazines way back in the '70s which, IIRC, also had Sky undersides but a higher fuselage demarkation line. I'll can probably dig out the info on the 'Wings' profile if you're interested but I have no idea how accurate it is. Hope this is of some help. Cheers, Mark Edited March 1, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Many thanks to everyone for all your replies they are extremely helpful especially that link Steve. I did search the site befroe posting this but I was searching for Swordfish and it didn't pull up that thread.Cheers I searched "shadow shading". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 To add to my comments in the previous thread, I believe that 825 Squadron Swordfish on Victorious were marked with a single letter code on the fin in dull red. This was almost certainly the location of the code during the Channel Dash in Feb 1942 and certainly the style and position of the code shortly afterwards. If this is so, it would help explain why the codes are so hard to see on the classic Bismarck attack photographs that are often reproduced. Of the 9 825 Squadron Swordfish taking part in the Bismarck attack, 8 were Blackburn built and 1 was Fairey built. The Blackburn Swordfish would all have been finished in the standard early Blackburn Scheme, which is easily identifiable by the pattern of the upper-surface demarcation on the fuselage sides. This is two 'sweeping curves' from nose to lower-mainplane wing root and lower-mainplane wing root to fin. Whether they were shadow shaded or not is still unresolved. I think not having looked at the Admiralty documents in conjunction with the documents that Ian Huntley salved from Fairey and Blackburn. Others might disagree. No further progress with the serials/codes for these aircraft, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCRanger Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 To add to my comments in the previous thread, I believe that 825 Squadron Swordfish on Victorious were marked with a single letter code on the fin in dull red. This was almost certainly the location of the code during the Channel Dash in Feb 1942 and certainly the style and position of the code shortly afterwards. If this is so, it would help explain why the codes are so hard to see on the classic Bismarck attack photographs that are often reproduced. Forgive me for a slight deviation of the thread but this is the first reference I have seen to Channel Dash Swordfish having the code letter on the fin and as far as I am aware there are no photographs.Could you expand on that for me please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) Forgive me for a slight deviation of the thread but this is the first reference I have seen to Channel Dash Swordfish having the code letter on the fin and as far as I am aware there are no photographs.Could you expand on that for me please. You are right about the lack of photos. However, have a look at the photo on p.102 of the Swordfish Story, if you have a copy. It shows the fin of a replacement 825 Swordfish in April 1942 - in fact a replacement for Esmonde's aircraft. Once you've seen how difficult it is to make out the 'H', but you know the position, it is possible to make out a similar single letter code on the fin of other 825 Swordfish. Given that this seems to be the style adopted by 825 Squadron - and the replacement for Esmonde's aircraft was so marked - it seems highly likely that this was the style of code marking carried six weeks earlier and probably also in May 1941. Having discovered this, I reviewed some unpublished photos I have of 825 Squadron on Victorious and now believe that I have a photo of Esmonde's 825:A from May 1941. There's a reveal from a future volume of FAA Camouflage and Markings....... Edited March 1, 2011 by iang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 There's a reveal from a future volume of FAA Camouflage and Markings....... When? When? When?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 When? When? When?! Given up predicting. BPF one is further on at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCRanger Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 . It shows the fin of a replacement 825 Swordfish in April 1942 - in fact a replacement for Esmonde's aircraft. Once you've seen how difficult it is to make out the 'H', but you know the position, it is possible to make out a similar single letter code on the fin of other 825 Swordfish. So it does - and I've looked at that photo a few times. That puts the profiles of his aircraft in the same place as the Scarf Blenheim. Look forward to getting my hands on both of you new books. Any chance that the BPF book will have details of Hampton Gray's Corsair and the type of bombs carried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 So it does - and I've looked at that photo a few times. That puts the profiles of his aircraft in the same place as the Scarf Blenheim. Look forward to getting my hands on both of you new books. Any chance that the BPF book will have details of Hampton Gray's Corsair and the type of bombs carried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) Well - now that you mention it, I think I have tracked down the Fleet Number of Gray's Corsair on 9.8.45. I need to check a better quality print of a photo I've found before I can be 100% sure.... Edited March 3, 2011 by iang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCDSpecial Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Airfix A02044 has the Cod listed as: No. 1841 NAS KD658/115-X (Lt. Robert Hampton (Hammy) Gray) 1945 Victoria Cross - HMS Formidable  (2009 Release) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 No idea why it happened, but nice to have this kicked back up top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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